Candid conversation

Cameron Crowe • Playboy • September 1976

He was once a scruffy, honey-haired folk singer. Then an adamantly bisexual balladeer. Then a spacey, cropped-red-haired androgynous guitarist backed by a band called the Spiders from Mars. Then a soul singer. Then a movie actor … and finally, a smartly conservative, entertainer. David Bowie, it's safe to say, would do anything to make it. And how that he has made it, he'll do anything to stay there.

At 29, David Bowie is far more than another rock star. He is a self-designed media manipulator who knows neither tact nor intimidation. There is but one objective to his bizarrely eclectic rear-attention. Without it, he would surely wither and die. Before a crowd of paying customers, if possible.

In April 1975, Bowie splashily announced he had given up on rock. "I've rocked my roll," is the way he put it. "It's a boring dead end. There will be no more rock and roll records or tours from me. The last thing I want to be is some useless fucking rock singer." That was the second time he'd made such a statement. He had first announced a rock retirement during his encore at a huge outdoor London concert in 1973, after which he went on to release Diamond Dogs and to book a three-month American tour.

This time, Bowie ate his words of farewell even more spectacularly. Last November, he arranged an interview by satellite from his Los Angeles home with England's most popular talk-show host Russel Harty to explain that he had a new album of double-fisted rock and roll, Station to Station. What's more, Bowie rambled on, he would soon embarking on a six-month worldwide concert blitz. The government of Spain, meanwhile, demanded emergency use of the satellite to tell the world that Generalissimo Franco had died, Bowie, always the bad boy, refused to give it up.

Bowie is not the most loved man in the music business. Still, he has made his mark. When he first appeared on an American stage in 1972, he was humping his guitarist, wearing full make-up and sporting lavishly feminine costumes. He instantly created a new genre-glamour rock-that yanked rock out of its innocence. Mick Jagger and the Rolling Stones, Elton John, Alice Cooper, Todd Rundgren, Lou Reed and a host of glitter bands, such as Queen, Roxy Music, Slade, T.Rex and Cockney Rebel, followed suit.

Once Bowie had turned everybody's hand on that first US tour, it wasn't long before his then-current LP about a doomed rock demigod, The Rise and Fall of Ziggy Stardust and The Spiders from Mars, shot to the top of the charts. His three previous albums – all stiffs in their day – began selling wildly. The press leaped to proclaim Bowie the Next Big Thing we'd all been craving since the demise of the Beatles. Just as quickly, it turned, it turned to attack the phenomenon. There was, it seemed, something about Bowie's bisexual bandwagon that wasn't quite … healthy.

Musicians and critics banded together to revolt against Bowie's decadence. But Bowie had already assumed a new, equally ludicrous facade-disco soul. Suddenly, this frail, faggy hard rocker was bumping and grinding out rhythm-and-blues. And it worked. Bowie racked up two huge hits, 'Young Americans' and Fame. Then came the ultimate acceptance: He became one of the very few whites ever to be invited to appear on Soul Train.

To accommodate the wide base of his success, Bowie has since assumed the posture of grand old entertainer, wearing black formal trousers and vest over a white shirt. Station to Station reached the sacred gold status of $500,000 worth sold. His subsequent world tour, just completed, was a sellout at every stop.

Now, in Bowie's biggest year yet, the onetime glitter king / queen of rock is threatening to keep a promise for once. He has always claimed to be a genuine film star, and his performance in Nicolas (Walkabout, Don't Look Now, Performance) Roeg's recent release, The Man Who Fell To Earth, has won lavish praise. The choice of Bowie, to The New York Times, inspired. Mr. Bowie gives an extraordinary performance.

We figured it was about time to catch up with Bowie's crusade-as he has explained it-to rule the world. Freelance journalist and Rolling Stone contributing editor Cameron Crowe was sent to visit with the most arrogant superstar to invade the media in the seventies. His report:

My talks with Bowie began as far back as early 1975. Few of our sessions were marathon affairs. No matter how stimulating the conversation, after any longer than an hour of sitting still, Bowie could barely contain himself. 'Can we just take a short break?' he'd blurt. Not waiting for reply, he would then shoot to his feet and dart in another direction: sometimes to write a song or two, other times to dash off a painting. In one instance, he ended a session by asking for a random list of 20 items. I gave it to him. He studied the list for ten seconds handed it back and recited it from memory. Backward and forward.

Bowie is expertly charming, whether in the company of a stuffy film executive, another musician or a complete stranger. He is fully aware that he is a sensational quote machine. The more shocking his revelation, from his homosexual encounters to his fascist leanings, the wider his grin. He knows exactly what interviewers consider good copy; and he gives them precisely that. The truth is probably inconsequential.

Playboy: Let's start with the one question you've always seemed to hedge: How much of your bisexuality is fact and how much is gimmick?

It's true, I am a bisexual. But I can't deny that I've used that fact very well. I suppose it's the best thing that ever happened to me. Fun, too. We'll talk all about it.

Why do you say it's the best thing that ever happened to you?

Well, for one thing, girls are always presuming that I've kept my heterosexual virginity for some reason. So I've had all these girls try to get me over to the other side again: "C'mon, David, it isn't all that bad. I'll show you." Or, better yet, "We'll show you." I always play dumb. On the other hand – I'm sure you want to know about the other hand as well — when I was 14, sex suddenly became all-important to me. It didn't really matter who or what it was with, as long as it was a sexual experience. So it was some very pretty boy in class in some school or other that I took home and neatly fucked on my bed upstairs. And that was it. My first thought was, Well, if I ever get sent to prison, I'll know how to keep happy.

Which wouldn't give much slack to your straighter cellmates.

I've always been very chauvinistic, even in my boy-obsessed days. But I was always a gentleman. I always treated my boys like real ladies. Always escorted them properly and, in fact, I suppose if I were a lot older — like 40 or 50 — I'd be a wonderful sugar daddy to some little queen down in Kensington. I'd have a houseboy named Richard to order around.

How much of that are we supposed to believe? Your former publicist, the celebrated ex-groupie Cherry Vanilla, says she's slept with you and that you're not gay at all. She says you just let people think you like guys.

Oh, I'd love to meet this impostor she's talking about. It sure ain't me. That's actually a lovely quote. Cherry's almost as good as I am at using the media.

Yet the fact remains that you've never been seen with a male lover. Why?

Oh, Lord, I got over being a queen quite a long time ago. For a while, it was pretty much 50-50; and now the only time it tempts me is when I go over to Japan. There are such beautiful looking boys over there. Little boys? Not that little. About 18 or 19. They have a wonderful sort of mentality. They're all queens until they reach 25, then suddenly they become samurai, get married and have thousands of children. I love it.

Why, at a time when nobody else in rock would have dared allude to it, did you choose to exploit bisexuality.

I would say that America forced me into it. Someone asked me in an interview once – I believe it was in '71 – if I were gay. I said, "No, I'm bisexual." The guy, a writer for one of the English traders, had no idea what the term meant. So I explained it to him. It was all printed — and that's where it started. It's so nostalgic now, isn't it? '71 was a good American year. Sex was still shocking. Everybody wanted to see the freak. But they were so ignorant about what I was doing. There was very little talk of bisexuality or gay power before I came along. Unwittingly, I really brought that whole thing over. I never, ever saw the word gay when I first got over here to America. It took a bit of exposure and a few heavy rumors about me before the gay said, "We disown David Bowie." And they did. Of course. They knew that I wasn't what they were fighting for. Nobody understood the European way of dressing and adopting the asexual, androgynous everyman pose. People all went screaming, "He's got make-up on and he's wearing stuff that looks like dresses!" I wasn't the first one, though, to publicise bisexuality.

Who was?

Dean. James Dean did, very subtly and very well. I have some insight on it. Dean was probably very much like me. Elizabeth Taylor told me that once. Dean was calculating. He wasn't careless. He was not the rebel he portrayed so successfully. He didn't want to die. But he did believe in the premise of taking yourself to extremes, just to add a deeper cut to one's personality. James Dean epitomised the very thing that is so cam oily respectable today — the male hustler. It was part of his incredible magnetism. You know, that he was … a whore. He used to stand on Times Square to earn money so he could go to Lee Strasberg and learn how to be Marlon Brando. He had quite a sordid little reputation. I admire him immensely - that should take care of any question you may have about whatever or not I have any heroes.

Thanks. Now what about your posing in drag for the cover of the English album of The Man Who Sold The World?

Funnily enough, and you'll never believe me, it was a parody of Gabriel Rossetti. Slightly askew, obviously. So when they told me that a drag-queen cult was forming behind me, I said. "Fine, don't try to explain it; nobody is going to bother to try to understand it." I'll play along, absolutely anything to break me through. Because of everybody's thirst for scandal — look at how big People is — they gave me a big chance. All the papers wrote volumes about how sick I was, how I was helping to kill off true art. In the meantime, they used up all the space they could have given over to true artists. That is really pretty indicative of how compelling pretension is, that it commanded that amount of bloody writing about what colour my hair was gonna be next week. I want to know why they wasted all that time and effort and paper on my cloths and my pose. Why? Because I was a dangerous statement. The follow-up to that, now that I've decided to talk a little more — if only to you — was, "How dare he have such a strenuous ego?" That, in itself, seemed a danger to some people. Am I, as a human being, worth talking about? I frankly think, Yes, I am. I've got to carry through with the conviction that I am also my own medium. The only way I can be effective as a person is to be this confoundedly arrogant and forthright with my point of view. That's the way I am. I believe myself with the utmost sincerity.

But aren't you having trouble getting other people to believe you? Take, for example, your well-publicised farewells to showbiz. You've retired twice, swearing you'd never have another thing to do with rock 'n' roll. Yet you've just finished a six-month world concert tour, promoting your newest rock 'n' roll album, Station to Station. How do you rationalise these contradictions?

I lie. It's quite easy to do. Nothing matters except whatever it is I'm doing at the moment. I can't keep track of everything I say. I don't give a shit. I can't even remember how much I believe and how much I don't believe. The point is to grow into the person you grow into. I haven't a clue where I'm gonna be in a year. A raving nut, a flower child or a dictator, some kind of reverend — I don't know. That's what keeps me from getting bored.

What else do you do to keep from getting bored?

You name it.

How about drugs?

What year is it now? '76? I suppose I've been knocking on heaven's door for about 11 years now, with one sort of high or another. The only kinds of drugs I use, though, are ones that keep me working for longer periods of time. I haven't gotten involved in anything heavy since '68. I had a silly flirtation with smack then, but it was only for the mystery and enigma of trying it. I never really enjoyed it at all. I like fast drugs. I've said that many times. I hate falling out, where I can't stand up and stuff. It seems like such a waste of time. I hate downs and slow drugs like grass. I hate sleep. I would much prefer staying up, just working, all the time. It makes me so mad that we can't do anything about sleep or the common cold.

Do you remember the first time you got stoned?

On grass? I'd done a lot of pills ever since I was a kid. Thirteen or fourteen. But the first time I got stoned on grass was with John Paul Jones of Led Zeppelin many, many years ago, when he was still a bass player on Herman's Hermits records. We'd been talking to Ramblin' Jack Elliot somewhere and Jonesy said to me, "Come over and I'll turn you on to grass." I thought about it and said, "Sure, I'll give it a whirl." We went over to his flat – he had a huge room, with nothing in it except this huge vast Hammond organ – right next door to the Police department. I had done cocaine before but never grass. I don't know why it should have happened in that order, probably because I knew a couple of merchant seamen who used to bring it back from the docks. I had been doing it with them. And they loathed grass. So I watched in wonder while Jonesy rolled these three fat joints. And we got stoned on all of them. I became incredibly high and it turned into an in-fucking-credible hunger. I ate two loaves of bread. Then the telephone rang. Jonesy said, "Go and answer that for me, will you?" So I went downstairs to answer the phone and kept on walking right out into the street. I never went back. I just got intensely fascinated with the cracks in the pavement.

Did you ever get into acid?

I did three times. It was very colourful, but I thought my own imagination was already richer. Naturally. And more meaningful to me. Acid only gives people a link with their own imagery. I already had it. It was nothing new to me. It just sort of made a lot of fancy colours. Flashy lights and things. "Oh, look. I see God in the window." So what? I never needed acid to make music, either.

How much have drugs affected your music?

The music is just an extension of me, so the question really is, What have drugs done to me? They've fucked me up, I think. Fucked me up nicely and I've quite enjoyed seeing what it was like being fucked up.

Then you agree with the reviewer who called your Young Americans album "a fucked-up LP from a fucked-up rock star"?

Well, The Man Who Sold The World is actually the most drug-oriented album I've made. That was when I was the most fucked up. Young Americans probably is a close second, but that is from my current drug period. The Man was when I was holding on to some kind of flag for hashish. As soon as I stopped using that drug, I realised it dampened my imagination. End of slow drugs.

That doesn't sound much like the guy who was recently busted in upstate New York for possession of eight ounces of marijuana.

Rest assured the stuff was not mine. I can't say much more, but it did belong to the others in the room that were busted in. Bloody potheads. What a dreadful irony – me popped for grass. The stuff sickens me. I haven't touched it in a decade.

In the song 'Station To Station' though, you do refer to cocaine?

Yes, yes. The line is, "It's not the side effects of the cocaine… .I'm thinking that it must be love." Do the radio stations bleep it out?

None that we've heard. Did you have any reservations about using the line in the song?

None whatsoever.

One might easily construe it as advocating the use of cocaine, Or is that the message?

I have no message whatsoever. I really have nothing to say, no suggestions or advice, nothing. All I do is suggest some ideas that will keep people listening a bit longer. And out of it all, maybe they'll come up with a message and save me the work. My career has kind of been like that. I get away with murder.

You claim you like to work all the time, yet you release only one album a year. What exactly do you do between recording sessions?

I write songs and screenplays and poems, I paint, I do Kurlien photography, I manage myself. I act, I produce, I record, sometimes I tour. I could give you five new and unreleased David Bowie albums right now. I could just hand them over. I've got an incredible backlog of material. Work, work, work… .

Do you ever relax?

If you're asking whatever or not I take vacations, the answer is no. I find all my relaxation within the context of work; I'm very serious about that. I've always thought the only thing to do was to try to go through life as Superman, right from the word go. I felt far too insignificant as just another person. I couldn't exist thinking all that was important was to be a good person. I thought, Fuck that; I don't want to be just another honest Joe. I want to be a supersuperbeing and improve all the equipment that I've been given to where it works 300 percent better. I find that it's possible to do it.

Would you give us some examples of your self-improvement?

When I started writing, I couldn't put more than three or four words together. Now I think I write very well. I'm finding that if I just look at something and think, A man did that, I realise I can do it, too. And probably better. I didn't know anything about films, either. I mean, nothing at all. So I went out, got hold of a lot of the greatest films and worked it all out for myself. Very logically done. Now I have an excellent knowledge of the art. I became a bloody good actor, I'll tell you. An I'll be a superb filmmaker as well. It's only a matter of deciding what you want to do.

Surely, you doubt yourself sometimes?

Not so much anymore. About two years ago, I realised I had become a total product of my concept character Ziggy Stardust. So I set out on a very successful crusade to re-establish my own identity. I stripped myself down and took myself down and took myself apart, layer by layer. I used to sit in bed and pick on one thing a week that I either didn't like or couldn't understand. And during the course of the week, I'd try to kill it off.

What was the first thing you attacked?

I think my lack of humour was the first thing I picked on. Then prissiness. Why did I feel that I was superior to people? I had to come to some conclusion. I haven't yet, but I dug into myself. That was very good therapy. I spewed myself up. I'm still doing it. I seem to know exactly what makes me sad.

Doesn't taking yourself apart all the time tend to make you a little schizophrenic?

The four of me will have to talk about that. Am I a schizophrenic? One side of me probably is, but the other side is right down the middle, solid as a rock. Actually, I'm not schizophrenic at all. I think that my thought forms are fragmented a lot, that much is obvious. I often think of six things at one time. They all sort of interrupt one another. Not very good when I'm driving.

Do you ever have trouble deciding which is the real you?

I've learned to flow with myself. I honestly don't know where the real David Jones is. It's like playing the shell game. Except I've got so many shells I've forgotten what the pea looks like. I wouldn't know it if I found it. Being famous helps put off the problems of discovering myself. I mean that. That's the main reason I've always been so keen on being accepted, why I've striven so hard to put my brain to artistic use. I want to make a mark. In my early stuff, I made it through on sheer pretension. I consider myself responsible for a whole new school of pretensions — they know who they are. Don't you, Elton? Just kidding. No I'm not. See what I mean? That was a thoroughly pretentious statement. True or not, I bet you'll print that. Show someone something where intellectual analysis or analytical thought has been applied and people will yawn. But something that's pretentious — that keeps you riveted. It's also the only thing that shocks anymore. It shocks as much as the Dylan thing did 14 years ago. As much as sex shocked many years ago.

You're saying sex is no longer shocking?

Oh, come on. Sorry, Hugh. Sex has never really been shocking, it was just the people who performing sex. Now nobody really cares. Everybody fucks everybody. The only thing that shocks now is an extreme. Like me running my mouth off, jacking myself off. Unless you do that, nobody will pay attention to you. Not for long. You have to hit them on the head.

Is that the Bowie success formula?

That's always been it. It's never really changed. For instance, what I did with my Ziggy Stardust was package a totally credible, plastic rock 'n' roll singer — much better then the Monkees could ever fabricate. I mean, my plastic rock 'n' roller was much more plastic than anybody's. And that was what was needed at the time. And it still is. Most people still want their idols and gods to be shallow, like cheap toys. Why do you think teenagers are the way they are? They run around like ants, chewing gum and fitting onto a certain style of dressing for a day; that's as deep as they wish to go. It's no surprise that Ziggy was a huge success.

Is that why you said you become Ziggy at one point?

Without even thinking about it. At first, I just assumed that character onstage. Then everybody started to treat me as they treated Ziggy: as though I were the Next Big Thing, as though I moved masses of people. I became convinced I was a Messiah. Very scary. I woke up fairly quickly.

Do you ever worry about your fans giving up on you — not wanting to hear Bowie as a soul singer or whatever?

Well, they must understand what my trip was in the beginning. I've never been a musician.

What have you been?

The unfortunate thing is that I've always wanted to be a film director. And the two media got unconsciously amalgamated, so I was doing films on record. That creates your basic concept album, which becomes a bit of a slow packhorse in the end. Now I know that if I'm going to make albums, I've got to make albums that I enjoy musically, or else just make the fucking film.

A lot of my concept albums, like Aladdin Sane, Ziggy and Diamond Dogs, were only 50 percent there. They should have been visual as well. I think that some of the most talented actors around are in rock. I think a whole renaissance in filmmaking is gonna come from rock. Not because of it, though, despite it.

But you've said that you find rock depressing and sterile, even evil.

It is depressing and sterile and, yes, ultimately evil. Anything that contributes to stagnation is evil. When it has familiarity, it's no longer rock 'n' roll. It's white noise. Dirge. Just look at disco music — the endless numb beat. It's really dangerous. So I've moved on. I've established the fact that I am an entertainer, David Bowie, not just another boring rock singer. I've got a film out, Nicolas Roeg's The Man Who Fell To Earth. And I'll be doing a lot more, taking a lot of chances. The minute you know you're finished. It's over. The last thing I want is to be established. I want to go to bed every night saying, "If I never wake again, I certainly will have lived while I was alive".

Let's go back to disco music. You say it's a dirge, yet you had the biggest disco hit of last year in Fame and you scored again this year with 'Golden Years'. How do you explain that?

I love disco. It's a lively escapist's way out. I quite like it, as long as it's not on the radio night and day, which it is so much these days. Fame was an incredible bluff that worked. Very flattering. I'll do anything until I fail. And when I succeed, I quit, too. I'm really knocked out that people actually dance to my records, though. But let's be honest; my rhythm and blues are thoroughly plastic. Young Americans, the album Fame is from, is, I would say, the definitive plastic soul record. It's the squashed remains of ethnic music as it survives in the age of Muzak rock, written and sung by a white limey. If you had played Young Americans to me five years ago and said, "This is an R&B album," I would have laughed. Hysterically.

How about if we had said, "This is going to be your album five years from now"?

I would have thrown you and the record out of my house.

What did you think of Barbara Streisand's recording your song 'Life On Mars?'

Bloody awful. Sorry, Barb, but it was atrocious.

You're not noted for cordial relationship with other artists. Yet there was the rumour that you flew to Europe to spend a sabbatical with Bob Dylan. What about it?

That's a beaut. I haven't even left this bloody country in years. I saw Dylan in New York seven, eight months ago. We don't have a lot to talk about. We're not great friends. Actually, I think he hates me.

Under what circumstances did you meet?

Very bad ones. We went back to somebody's house after some gig at a club. We had all gone to see someone, I can't remember who, and Dylan was there. I was in a very, sort of... verbose frame of mind. And I just talked at him for hours and hours, and whatever I amused him or scared him or repulsed him, I really don't know. I didn't wait for any answers. I just went on and on about everything. And then I said good night. He never phoned me.

Did he impress you?

Not really. I'd just like to know what the young chap thought of me. I was quite convinced that what I had to say was important, which I seem to feel all the time. It's been quite a while since somebody really impressed me, though.

Could another musician impress you?

Gil Evans, Ricky Ricardo, maybe. I like meeting other artists, but they rarely impress me. Regular people do, people who aren't playing power games. I know power plays immediately and I'm better at it than most of them, so I discount them in a flash.

How did you become a rock 'n' roller, anyway?

Truth? I was broke. I got into rock because it was enjoyable way of making my money and taking four or five years to puzzle my next move out. I was a painter before that, studying commercial art at Bromley Technical High School. I tried advertising and that was just awful. The lowest. But I was well into my little saxophone, so I left advertising and thought, Let's give rock a try. You can have a good time doing that and usually have at least enough money to live on. Especially then. It was the Mod days; nice clothes were half the battle.

But nice clothes cost money.

At the time, not necessarily. I lived out of the dustbins on the back streets of Carnaby. Carnaby Street was actually, at one time, quite fashionable, before it became known to everybody in London. The very best young designers were down there and because they were very expensive Italians, if any of the shirts had a button of or anything like that, it would go in the dustbin. We'd go around and nick all the stuff out of the dustbins. Entire wardrobes of clothes for, well, nothing. All you had to do was sew a button on or stitch a sleeve. I remember when I used to steal everything. Had to look fashionable. We all were caught up in that game of wanting to be the next Elvis Presley, hopping from tinny band to tinny band. I went through a group called David Jones and the Buzz, another called David Jones and the Lower Third, even a mime troupe called Feathers.

What was it like to be a mime?

Oh, listen, it's very easy to be a mime. There wasn't much competition. I was only reasonably good. My technique was quite poor, actually, but nobody really knew. I've got a very good body and it does things I want it to do, but I'm still not disciplined enough to ever compete with a Marcel Marceau. Mime helped me learn a lot about body language. That's all.

Didn't your wife, Angela, have something to do with getting you your first recording contract?

Angela and I knew each other because we were both going out with the same man. Another one of her boyfriends, a talent scout for Mercury Records, took her to a show at the Roundhouse, where I happened to be playing. He hated me. She thought I was great. Ultimately, she threatened to leave him if he didn't sign me. So he signed me.

And how was the situation with your mutual boyfriend resolved?

I married Angela and we both continued to see him.

Why did you marry her?

Because I realised that she'd be one of the very few women I'd be capable of living with for more than a week. She is remarkably pleasant to keep coming back to. And, for me, she always will be. There's nobody more demanding than me. Not physically, necessarily, but mentally. I'm very strenuous. Very intense about anything I do. I scare away most people I've lived with.

Were you in love with Angela?

Never have been in love, to speak of. I was in love once, maybe, and it was an awful experience. It rotted me, drained me, and it was a disease. Hateful thing, it was. Being in love is something that breeds brute anger and jealousy, everything but love, it seems. It's a like Christianity — or any religion, for that matter.

What do you believe in?

Myself. Politics. Sex … .

Since you put yourself first, do you consider yourself an original thinker?

Not by any means. More like a tasteful thief. The only art I'll ever study is stuff that I can steal from. I do think that my plagiarism is effective. Why does an artist create, anyway? The way I see it, if you're an inventor, you invent something that you hope people can use. I want art to be just as practical. Art can be a political reference, a sexual force, any force that you want, but it should be useable. What the hell do artist want? Museum pieces? The more I get ripped off, the more flattered I get. But I've caused a lot of discontent because I've expressed my admiration for other artists by saying, "Yes, I'll use that," or, "Yes, I took this from him and this from her." Mick Jagger, for example, is scared to walk into the same room as me even thinking any new idea. He knows I'll snatch it.

Is it true that Jagger once told you he was hiring the French artist Guy Peellaert for the jacket of a Rolling Stones album and you ran right off to hire Peellaert for your own album, Diamond Dogs, which was released first?

Mick was silly. I mean, he should never shown me anything new. I went over to his house and he had all these Guy Peellaert pictures around and said, "What do you think of this guy?" I told him I thought he was incredible. So I immediately phoned him up. Mick's learned now, as I've said. He will never do that again. You've got to be a bastard in this business.

Any other artists you'd especially like to hire?

I really wanted Norman Rockwell to do an album, cover for me. Still do. I originally wanted him for the cover of Young Americans. I got his phone number and called him up. Very quaint. His wife answered and I said, "Hello, this is David Bowie," and so on. I asked if he could paint the cover. His wife said in this quavering, elderly voice, "I'm sorry, but Norman needs at least six months for his portraits." So I had to pass, but I thought the experience was lovely. What a craftsman. Too bad I don't have the same painstaking passion. I'd rather just get my ideas out of my system as fast as I can.

Some psychiatrists would call your behaviour compulsive. Does the fact that there is insanity in your family frighten you?

My brother Terry's in an asylum right now. I'd like to believe that the insanity is because our family is all genius, but I'm afraid that's not true. Some of them — a good many — are just nobodies. I'm quite fond of the insanity, actually. It's a nice thing to throw out at parties, don't you think? Everybody finds empathy in a nutty family. Everybody says, "Oh, yes, my family is quite mad." Mine really is. No fucking about, boy. Most of them are nutty — in, just out of or going into an institution. Or dead.

What do they think of you?

I haven't a clue. I haven't spoken to any of them in years. My father is dead. I think I talked to my mother a couple of years ago. I don't understand any of them. It's not a question of their understanding me anymore. The shoe's on the other foot.

You've often said that you believe very strongly in fascism. Yet you also claim you'll one day run for Prime Minister of England. More media manipulation?

Christ, everything is a media manipulation. I'd love to enter politics. I will one day. I'd adore to be Prime Minister. And, yes, I believe very strongly in fascism. The only way we can speed up the sort of liberalism that's hanging foul in the air at the moment of a right-wing, totally dictatorial tyranny and get it over as fast as possible. People have always responded with greater efficiency under a regimental leadership. A liberal wastes time saying, "Well, now, what ideas have you got?" Show them what to do, for God's sake. If you don't, nothing will get done. I can't stand people just hanging about. Television is the most fascist, too. Adolf Hitler was one of the first rock stars.

How so?

Think about it. Look at some of his films and see how he moved. I think he was quite as good as Mick Jagger. It's astounding. And, boy, when he hit that stage, he worked an audience. Good God! He was no politician. He was a media artist himself. He used politics and theatrics and created this thing that governed and controlled the show for those 12 years. The world will never see his like. He staged a country. Really, I would like to be Prime Minister, but I think I'd have to set up my own country first. I don't want to be Prime Minister of the old country. I'd have to create the state that I wish to live in first. I dream of one day buying companies and television stations, owning and controlling them.

Are you still obsessed, as you reputedly once were, with the fear of being assassinated onstage?

No. I died too many times on stage, man. And it's really not too bad. No, I don't have the paranoia anymore. I've now decided that my death should be very precious. I really want to use it. I'd like my death to be as interesting as my life has been and will be. And being assassinated is not quite a hero's demise. Assassination is the … the snub. The Great Snub. It's the ultimate result of that Wilhelm Reich philosophy — nobody will be allowed to be any more than we are — that most people subscribe to in their hearts. People aren't very bright, you know. They say they want freedom, but when they get the chance, they pass up Nietzsche and choose Hitler, because he would march into a room to speak and music and lights would come on at strategic moments. It was rather like a rock 'n' roll concert. The kids would get very excited — girls got hot and sweaty and guys wished it was them up there. That, for me, is the rock 'n' roll experience.

You stated in Rolling Stone that you'd like to use your music to "rule the world … subliminally." Would you care to elaborate?

I think subliminal advertising is great. If it hadn't been outlawed, it would have gone out of advertising very quickly and straight into politics. I would have excelled at it. Think of it, an empty screen that people could stare at for an hour and a half and not actually see anything but leave with an entire experience in their hands. Of course, Rolling Stone got hate mail. So did Dali in his day. He knew exactly what he was doing when he painted his paintings. He knew what all the objects meant. Should his work have been destroyed and he forced to paint a vase of flowers? The attitude that says the artist should paint only things the proletarian can understand, I think, is the most destructive thing possible. That sounds a little like Hitler's going around to museums and tearing modern paintings down, doesn't it? You mustn't be scared of art. Rock 'n' roll is only rock 'n' roll. People hold it so sacred — mustn't tamper, in case you find out that it really does govern kids. Those old Fifties antirock movies were right. Rock 'n' roll records are dangerous to the moral fibre. But then, records are a thing of the past now, so who knows?

We're not quite sure how you made the leap from subliminal advertising to reporting the death of the record industry, but since you have, what do you propose will happen to music in the future?

It will return to the sensitivities of the working class. That excites me. Sound as texture, rather than sound as music. Producing noise records seems pretty logical to me. My favourite group is a German band called Kraftwerk — it plays noise music to "increase productivity." I like that idea, if you have to play music.

We give up. Let's talk about movies. Why did you decide to do The Man Who Fell To Earth?

Well, I'll tell you what happened. I was sent the script and was immediately intrigued with the character of Newton, who had a lot in common with me. He dreaded cars but loved fast speeds. He was physically emaciated; there were so many characteristics we had in common. One problem: I hated the script.

How did you get around that?

Nicolas Roeg, the director, came over to my house a number of weeks after he'd sent the script. He arrived on time and I was out. After eight hours or so, I remembered our appointment. I turned up nine hours late, thinking of course, that he'd gone. He was sitting in the kitchen. He'd been sitting for hours and hours and wouldn't go upstairs, wouldn't go into my room. He stayed in the kitchen. God, I was so embarrassed. I thought I would be embarrassed into doing the film. He said, "Well, David, what do you think of the script?" I said, "It's a bit corny, isn't it?" His face just fucking fell off. Then he started talking. Two or three hours later, I was convinced the man was a genius. There is a very strong story line, as it turns out, but that only provides the backbone to the meat of it. It works on spiritual and prime level of an incredibly complex, Howard Hughes-type alien. I still don't understand all the inflictions Roeg put into the film. He's of a certain artistic level that's well above me.

Why did Roeg want you?

He had Peter O'Toole cast, but he couldn't do the film. And I believe the editor of the film advised Nick to watch the documentary about me, Cracked Actor, that was on the BBC. Nic watched it and I guess it was my attachment to Ziggy, the alter ego, that captured his interest and imagination. And my looks helped, too. Roeg wanted a definite, pointedly stark face — which I had been endowed with.

How long did it take for you to adapt to the cameras?

Less than an hour. My first film, I couldn't have worked with a director unless it was somebody I knew instinctively would become a mentor. I couldn't have worked with someone I considered to be less than myself — and I have a very, very high opinion of my own abilities. Within the first hour on the set, I knew that I'd picked the right one. Just wait until I become a director, though. I'll be tremendous.

Do you find acting more worthwhile than rock 'n' roll?

Rock 'n' roll is acting. All my albums are just me acting out certain poses and characters. That's why I'm not entirely proud of a lot of my records — the visual side is sorely missed. My finally being on film simply makes it official. I'm sure I'll take my following with me. They're very faithful.

Steven Ford, the President's 20-year-old son, is one of your biggest fans. What did you talk about when he visited you in Los Angeles?

Steven Ford? He likes to talk about horses. I told him I could ride horses English style. He said that he rode Western style and knew that riding English style was a lot harder. I agreed with him and said, "Yes, it has a lot more to do with etiquette and discipline than to do with horsemanship." He agreed. That was it, really. I liked him very much. I asked him what he thought of using rock 'n' roll as a political vehicle.

And what did he say?

That's when he started talking about horses.

Did he invite you to meet Gerald?

No. I invited myself. I said if I'm ever in the area, would he invite me down? He sort of reluctantly said yes. I don't know what he's worried about. I was a very butch gentleman with him.

How is your relationship with Elton John these days?

He sent me a very nice telegram the other day.

Didn't you describe him as "the Liberace, the token queen of rock"?

Yes, well that was before the telegram. I'd much rather listen to him on the radio than talk about him. Let's do something else. Want to write a song?

Sure.

All right. We'll call the song Audience and it'll be about rock 'n' roll. All right? I'm gonna say, "Led Zeppelin is solid. They make you like a wall." [writes it down] Quick. Give me the name of an artist, someone in rock.

How about Stevie Wonder?

Good. "Stevie Wonder is growing and you love him most of all." [writes it down] He's sort of the golden boy, everybody loves him. Who else? Name a good songwriter.

Joni Mitchell.

"Joni Mitchell has our hearts." [writes it down] She does, doesn't she? OK, let me get my guitar. ([looks at what he's written and begins strumming and humming softly] All right, here we go. [sings] "Led Zeppelin is growing, erasing in our minds / They make us feel stony, they make us go blind / Hey, Stevie Wonder, there like a wall / So good to lean on, the hardest of all … Isn't that a nice little tune?

Is that how you wrote Changes?

Naw, but that's basically how I wrote most of the Diamond Dogs album.

What happened to Joni Mitchell?

She's good enough, she doesn't need me crooning about her. You see, of course, there are no rules to my writing.

We see.

You asked about other rockers, you got a song. Don't complain. No respect. Who's that comedian? Rodney Dangerfield. Don't worry, Rodney. The new art is always catcalled. They hooted the Mona Lisa.

Do you feel you've been taken advantage of over the years?

Not taken advantage of. Exploited.

Are you suggesting you haven't made all that you should have?

What, money wise? Oh, Lord, no — we made nothing. All I've made is an impact and a change, which, of course, is worth a lot. I keep telling myself that. The best thing to say about it all is that it's archetypal rock 'n' roll business. Read the reports of the Beatles, the Stones and a lot of other big entertainers and take some kind of amalgamation of all that; it's a pretty accurate picture of my business. John Lennon has been through it all. John told me, "stick with it. Survive. You'll really go through the grind and they'll rip you off right and left. The key is to come out the other side." I said something cocky at the time like, "I've got a great manager. Everything is great. I'm a Seventies artist." The last time I spoke to John, I told him he was right. I'd been ripped off blind.

You're not a rich man? After five gold albums?

Now, yes, exceedingly. No! Wait, America! Not at all. Haven't got a penny to my name. I'm pleading poverty at the moment, but I'm potentially very rich. Theoretically rich but not wealthy.

Are you as bitter about the music business as Lennon and Jagger said they are?

No, no, no. You see, I needed to learn about it. You've got to make mistakes. It's very important to make mistakes. Very, very important. If I glided through, I wouldn't be the man I'm not today.

Last question. Do you believe and stand by everything you've said?

Everything but the inflammatory remarks.